... (0 comments)
As a contemporary example, Cato argues Cash for Clunkers is among the dumbest ever:
Sane folks should agree these outcomes are outrageously dumb. B-b-but, Obama bragged the program was popular! And truly, it was.
- A few billion dollars worth of wealth was destroyed. About 750,000 cars, many of which could have provided consumer value for many years, were thrown in the trash. Suppose each clunker was worth $3,000 at a guess, that would mean that the government destroyed $2.25 billion of value.
- Low-income families, who tend to buy used cars, were harmed because the clunkers program will push up used car prices.
- Taxpayers were ripped off $3 billion. The government took my money to give to people who will buy new cars that are much nicer than mine!
- The federal bureaucracy has added 1,100 people to handle all the clunker administration. Again, taxpayers are the losers.
- The environment was not helped. See here and here.
- The auto industry received a short-term “sugar high” at the expense of lower future sales when the program is over. The program apparently boosted sales by about 750,000 cars this year, but that probably means that sales over the next few years will be about 750,000 lower. The program probably further damaged the longer-term prospects of auto dealers and automakers by diverting their attention from market fundamentals in the scramble for federal cash.
Offering everyone $100 towards burning an old set of ugly clothes and buying a sleek new replacement might also prove popular, both to consumers and the clothing industry. Huzzah, let’s do it! Regrettably, such popularity does not make it a good idea nor mean that implementing it would make any kind of economic or environmental sense—which it clearly wouldn’t.
This basic problem of economic inefficiency, generalized, is why the majority of other government programs and economic interventions are also really bad ideas. What is politically popular seldom implies economic efficiency. Often, quite the contrary. Political popularity foments fiscal insanity. First you get your Democrats, who want to give every person on Earth a free cake, dog, and pony—plus the choice of a prepaid subscription to either People or The Washington Monthly. This proves popular. Then as a reaction you get your Republicans, who don’t want to pay half a cent toward anything. This also proves popular. Unsurprisingly, voters want to have their cake and not have to pay for it, too. Politicians are happy to pander to both sides. The emerging compromise? Massive deficits—a.k.a. having our children and grandchildren deal with it somewhere down the line.
Yes, Virginia—I don’t mean to scare you with technical phrasing, but politics and government really do suck.
A sufficiently free market, by contrast, implements a method that almost always results in superior efficiency to either political popularity or technocratic fiat. It’s called price signals.
Unfortunately, due to a history of misguided (but politically popular!) government interventions and regulation, the U.S. health-care system does not have price signals. This works out very poorly.
Allow me to paint you an analogy. It would be as if credit cards were issued by “insurance card” companies who agree to provide their customers with “consumption coverage”. You would pay them a pre-arranged monthly “consumption premium”, and in exchange they would “cover”—with just a small co-pay!—any shopping you do with their card, provided it was clear that you “needed” it. Ramen noodles would probably be covered—eat more than you can puke. So would most canned goods. Even many of the cheaper fruits and veggies. But the fine entrée you wanted to serve at your next dinner party? Sorry, your insurance card company doesn’t think you “need” it. Oh, and there would also be limits on things like how much gas you can buy per week or how many drinks you’re allowed at the bar per night. Sound good? Meanwhile, more and better ways would be developed to game and profit off the convoluted system. Retailers would overcharge whatever they could get away with making the “insurance card” companies pay, and consumer demand for more and better purchase coverage would rapidly increase. Thus the monthly cost of these “consumption premiums” would also soar.
The above scenario is basically the status quo of U.S. health-care. Obviously, it sucks. In lieu of price signals, people always want more and better health-care to be provided, just like in the above they always want more “consumption coverage”. When the consumer doesn’t pay for services, markets become dysfunctional. (Also true of some marriages >_>)
So how to reform the system? Apart from those unfortunate Brits—who tragically got the idea during WWII that it would be good for their state to stay in the business of directly providing care—the left’s favored solution tends to be single-payer: a government takeover of health insurance companies, analogous to taking over the odd “insurance card” ones above.
Insurance companies make great villains, but as we saw with Cash for Clunkers and can observe by looking at many other programs—particularly socialized health plans in other countries—they all have their own kinds of problems. These problems are different from the US status quo: better in some ways, worse in others.
For example, one thing other countries’ socialized systems are better at is cost control (.pdf). They use their monopsony power to negotiate lower prices, and they can often be better at saying no to consumers. They say no in more equitable ways, such as long waiting times, and some Canadian towns run regular lotteries to decide which families get a doctor.
Controlling costs would be nice, especially compared to an expensive system like the US status quo. But one thing centralized bureaucratic cost controls also do is reduce the incentive for future private innovation. Why spend your time experimenting with and further developing a new health product if you can’t know whether the health bureau will decide it’s a cheap and effective enough treatment to get it off the ground?
In short, the choice between the U.S. status quo and a single-payer system offers trade-offs. I won’t spill more ink trying to formally pin them all down: it’s a big topic, kind of like going on about the difference between Republicans and Democrats.
At this point someone usually pipes up and wails about the plight of the uninsured poor. But that is not a health-care system problem, it is an income problem. And one of the few ways to directly mitigate an income problem is to provide subsidies to low-income families (some ways are more economically sound than others). Point is, you could implement subsidies and attain universal health insurance coverage in the U.S. without directly changing anything about our health-care delivery system or the insurance companies themselves. It would just be really expensive and balloon either the deficit or tax rates, which is why it shouldn’t be done in isolation.
Happily there’s a reform that would lower costs for everyone while actually increasing innovation: bring back the price signals that are so essential to market efficiency. Here’s how this might be accomplished:
Firstly, repeal any state-level regulation—often called “patients bill of rights”—that require insurance companies to fully cover particular procedures or put an artificial ceiling on deductibles. This would clear the regulatory barriers for health plans that sport low premiums and high deductibles, suitable for catastrophic coverage only. This is how real insurance is supposed to work, like the kind we have for our cars and homes. By contrast, the sort of thing we call “health insurance” today is actually “pre-paid health care”. Just imagine how high your car insurance payments would be if it were required to cover 80% of the cost of oil changes, tire rotation, wiper blades, new tires, regular service, etc.
Secondly, implement something like Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) for all the routine, preventative, non-catastrophic care. Apart from trimming administrative jobs in our bloated health insurance industry, this would free consumers to shop for their own health care (Enter price signals, mission accomplished).
Of course, esteemed Nobel laureates like Paul Krugman shall protest: ”Health care is not a bowl of cherries…or a carton of milk, or a loaf of bread.”
Indeed, shopping for health-care probably sounds like an odd idea to most. But HSAs have been tried right here in America, and the data suggest they work well:
Consumer-driven health (CDH) products [i.e., high-deductible health plans relying on HSAs or Health Reimbursement Arrangements to reimburse for qualified expenses] have been marketed in various forms since the early 2000s. While emerging data is [sic] not entirely conclusive, general directional conclusions can be drawn from the studies published to date. […]Bottom lines: the status quo puts health care rationing in the hands of insurance companies. Single-payer puts rationing in the hands of bureaucrats. A free, CDH market places it in the hands of consumers.With regard to first-year cost savings, all studies showed a favorable effect on cost in the first year of a CDH plan. CDHplan trends ranged from -4 percent to -15 percent. Coupled with a control population on traditional plans that experienced trends of +8 percent to +9 percent, the total savings generated could be as much as 12 percent to 20 percent in the first year. All studies used some variation of normalization or control groups to account for selection bias.
For savings after the first year, at least two of the studies indicate trend rates lower than traditional PPO plans by approximately 3 percent to 5 percent. If these lower trends can be further validated, it will represent a substantial cost-reduction strategy for employers and employees.
Generally, all of the studies indicated that cost savings did not result from avoidance of appropriate care and that necessary care was received in equal or greater degrees relative to traditional plans. All of the studies reviewed reported a significant increase in preventive services for CDH participants. Three of the studies found that CDH plan participants received recommended care for chronic conditions at the same or higher level than traditional (non-CDH) plan participants. Two studies reported a higher incidence of physicians following evidence-based care protocols.
Which of the three do you prefer?
Contrary to popular belief, those of us on the economic right do not advocate market solutions because we have some arcane faith in mythical powers of the market. We do so because they actually work better—even when they’re politically unpopular.
(At this point someone usually pipes up to rail about how the financial crisis, like, totally discredits the idea of markets being better. Let’s try not to be distracted by this different, macroeconomic topic that has more to do with a combination of poor regulation and lack of understanding the business cycle.)
The mean socially conservative Republican voter is our useful idiot. They don’t understand free market economics any better than the left does, and are liable to show up at your local town halls spouting all sorts of nonsense about government conspiracies to kill more babies. But the socons are willing to vote with us, so we often have to hold our nose and work with them. It’s called fusionism, and it’s been the price to pay for an economic way of doing business that—while superior on the merits—would otherwise be too politically unpopular. See for example the situation in contemporary Europe, which unlike the US has managed to purge socon fervor the old-fashioned way: through a long, tragic history of disastrous war.
I deplore social conservative attacks on personal freedom as much as the next freethinker, and I aim to counter them. But I also deplore the left’s attacks on economic freedom. And I’m aware of the uncomfortable truth: unless I can convince a lot more of my fellow social liberals to cut back on their leftism and support freer markets, a chronic Faustian bargain with socons is necessary to preserve what economic freedoms we have. Without this bargain, the U.S. economy would become more like Europe’s, with the lower efficiency and lowered growth that over the long term is worse for everyone—rich and poor alike. Unless, of course, one is lucky enough to become a politician, bureaucrat, or have a personal connection to the business. Then the European political-economic landscape looks pretty rosy, and one can seek out all sorts of creative ways to gloss over the underlying economic inefficiency.
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So an old car engine costs $3,000? because thats all that was destroyed, the rest of the parts are sold not destroyed…
and since when do we listen to the Cato fools? I mean, jeez, is there a way to make it so I can only see metavirus's posts? and not right wing whining?
$3000 might be an overestimate, but I also think it doubtful there's a market for all the old parts. And cars rarely have the same value when scrapped for parts as they did beforehand.
Update: Read this Wikipedia section. Seems the engine is the most valuable part to recyclers, and some aren't even participating due to the "limited profit potential".
Yet even if we charitably assumed only engine cost or even just $0 were destroyed here, it's still the case that some of the other bullets show it to have been a really dumb program. (notably the cost to taxpayers for practically no gain)
I'm sorry you don't find me worth reading. Metavirus never mentioned when he was returning, so the best I can suggest is checking back in a week or two.
Now now, take it easy on Gherald. He has a lot of views that are wiseand reasonable (gay marriage, warrantless wiretapping, torture, etc).Some of his other views on things like health care reform I don'tagree with and consider a bit fringey. But that's ok in my bookbecause I love a good debate with people who are mostly committed totruth and honesty, even if they come to some dubious conclusions. Ihope you'll find it in your heart to give Gherald some pearls ofwisdom while I'm away and I hope Gherald's posts on health care won'tcome to dominate his commentary here.In sum, can't we all just get along? Miss u guys
okay then, but Im gonna be noding my head a lot, haha
I read the last few entries backwards in my rss feed. Didn't realize this was a post from someone that is writing her right now :) (Thought it was a copy paste.) My thoughts are still the way I feel, but I would have put a nicer edge to them if I would have realized :)
ya sorry, gherald is doing some guest posting while i'm away on vaca
I suppose that you could drop out of the discussion if you wish but one thing I really like about Gherald is that we can discuss things like this without the polarizing name calling that is usually associated with this type of discussion. And I see that he has presented his opinion about Europe having a declining R&D development as fact without being able to prove it.
Actually I wasn't referring to R&D development or even present trend but to Europe's GDP over long periods of time. Sorry for not making that clearer, this post cast a wide net talking about various different things.
I don't have figures for all of Europe handy but I can tell you that over the past 30 years France's average annualized growth rate has been 1.9% while the US has been 2.9%. That may seem like a small difference just looking at the number, but it's like compounding interest and adds up to quite a bit. (check out the last link in the post for my amateurish calculation)
Dunno know what's up with the comment system, but my reply below kevin went invisible. I'll just try again:
I will check in on occasion while I'm away and will reply once in awhile via email. Are comments acting weird again?
Well it's showing up now, I guess it just needed your TLC : )
Oh, so you just had to drop this one on me while I'm in the air formost of the day!? I'll read it when I get to a computer
Your kidding right?
This program worked exactly as it was supposed to. A band aid on the economic system of the auto industry. Did the person who wrote this even go through and look at the great depression? Spending on the part of the government is essential to keeping a recession a recession and not a depression.
Hoover had these same ideas, and as a consequence is thought of by many as one of the worst presidents of all time. Hoover believed that the economy and businesses could run themselves with almost no outside interference. Specifically "I do not believe that the power and duty of the.. government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering."
Franklin D. Roosevelt who came up with the New Deal, is thought of as a great success. The main themes of the new deal included; relief (providing money to ensure that unemployed people had basic necessities and creating jobs), recovery (national planning to get the economy moving again), and reform (new laws to restructure institutions like banks, labor relations, and creating new social programs.) Examples: Emergency Banking Act, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, Civilian Conservation Corps, Home Owners Loan Corporation, Agricultural Adjustment Act, National Industrial Recovery Act, National Recovery Administration.
I am very glad our president understands and doesn't want America to slip into a depression, and I am thrilled he has taken steps to stop it. I don't think the government should do everything, however, doing some things makes sense.
The post written here is what makes bubbles, this is what causes depressions, not what keeps them from us. We are a people full of greed, which creates these fake amounts of money in our market place. This makes the market crash, and thus causes these problems.
I could write a book, but I think that is good enough for now…
The last bullet sort of addresses your band aid/stimulus point:
From your argument, you seem to think this sugar high was worth the costs of $3 billion to taxpayers and what Cato (over?)esitmated to be a $2.25 billion destruction of property.
Considering how much money the American auto industry has already gotten from taxpayers because of the UAW's drag on its efficiency, I see this more as insult to injury.
I'm not qualified to say much meaningful about the Great Depression, but I would just mention that FDR took a "try anything" approach and some of what he did like instituting price controls and paying farmers to destroy milk wasn't positive, though other things like the FDIC certainly were.
I do see the "sugar high" as worth it, as it keeps us that much closer to the recession, and that much farther away from the depression. You are right that not all of the programs that FDR tried worked, and he did admit that as well. The point was things had to be tried.
I am not sure that I agreed with the bailout for the auto industry. I am not sure if that was the best idea or not. I just don't know. However, I do know that the vast majority of the money will get paid back, I do not remember the estimates right now. Anyway, I do support cash for clunkers as it makes sense in many different aspects. Those sugar highs are what we need right now, even if in the long run it shortens the returns.
I "think" I am against companies that are "to big to fail", as that doesn't seem like sound economics to me. In fact I thought we had safeguards set up against that. (I was shocked to find out those had been repealed.) Anyway, I understand that the bailouts could be a source of being upset with how our money is being spent, but I don't agree that cash for clunkers should be in that area.
Anyway, my point was this particular program was a good idea. I do with that it wouldn't have been quite as popular and that it would have lived a bit longer thus stretching a bit farther. (Coffee just in the morning?) However, it did stimulate and thus it did as it was needed to do.
I am gonna shut up now because now I am just rambling :) I am bored today LOL
please, ramble as much as you like. i dig your rambling
"We are a people full of greed, which creates these fake amounts of money in our market place. " --this sounds to me like a tendency that I often have-- thinking that the world's problems can be solved by people simply being more morally decent. In fact, the solutions we can actually control with regard to this particular problem are probably structural and likely demands not wishing that people were morally better, but smarter regulation that works within people's natural self interest (which is also the source of our ambition and innovation).
Very true. We all know that stealing is wrong, but people can talk themselves into believing it is OK because of their situation. (Watched a special on it, and while some people just will steal because they don't care, most actually make themselves believe that they have no choice in their current situation.) It is the same type of thing, and while we all know that we don't have to have this and that to survive, we can convince ourselves that it is a need.
Which is why we have laws to make this illegal, regulations need to be in place. Like all things in life there has to be a balance, as to many regulations aren't good, but there is a "right" amount. I am not an expert so I don't know what that right amount is, but I do know there is a balance. To many laws (or regulations) doesn't work, and not enough doesn't work either…
So Terra, "fake amounts of money" come from regular commerce and the government spending maybe $1.6 trillion more than it takes in this year creates real amounts of money? How about the $1 trillion deficits Obama's budget projects for the next 3. ( $9 trillion in 10 years.)
That's real money I guess. Well you're technically right since they own the printing presses and have to really print more money or issue real debt to China, Hong Kong, countries in the Middle East, and others to cover it.
So when you wake up in a few years and find the price of everything from food to gasoline to clothes has shot through the roof, remember that it was all done to "save" us from a Great Depression. Except there's nothing about this recession that is remotely close to the Great Depression. It's actually closer to the recessions in the early 80's and 70's. But I guess you can point out the statistics that aren't, or you wouldn't be making that assertion.
I would think that the start of the current deficit would be laid directly at the foot of the Republican Party for the 3 trillion dollar dept from a failed oil war and the removal of most of the regulations on the banking industry that helped create the current crises and started the Bush bank bail out.
If we could live in the utopia that you like to project, the market could regulate how our care would be paid for and our health maintained by a market focused business I might be able to buy it. Unfortunately we do not live in that fairyland, but in one where huge international conglomerates with budgets larger than middle sized counties run roughshod over their client’s claims and only paying what they want. When they finally get caught they pay fines that are tiny compared to their profit level, buy off a few lawmakers with their lobbyists and continue with business as normal. Their track record is absolutely horrid and makes the national health care systems look good. You fear the interference of a few governmental officials and we fear the continual denial of benefits by the current company officials who continue to deny coverage to people like me by pricing out of affordable reange.
As a critique of the status quo I agree with some of this. But I pointed out that single-payer has its own problems, too, and advocated something different from the status quo. Did you look at the CDH study?
You complain about huge international conglomerates, but I think you should grapple with the fact that some of the most reliably Republican people in the country are small business owners. You should read up on compliance costs, regulatory capture, and think about how government interventions are more harmful to those who can't afford lobbyists.
PhRMA, for instance, supports the Democrats' health-care reform. Their lobbyists got them an insanely good deal in exchange for the cooperation of taking out pro-reform ads; a10,000% ROI.
You only see absurdly lucrative results like that when the government is involved in stuff. Could you explain to me how more government involvement in setting prices is going to give large conglomerates with lobbyists like this one less power over the rest of us?
Yes I know that most Republicans are small business men and not mega corporations. I also know that they must fill out realms of paper work for government officials, and I also know that they have to fill out even more realms of paper work for insurance companies. I also know that a lot of these Republican businessmen cannot offer insurance coverage to their employers, and in this area they have a tendency to use temporary workers so that they do not have to. The drive against health care reform is not driven from the small business man but from the lobbyists of the conglomerations that stand to lose their stranglehold on the market, making sure that the market cannot function the way you would like.
The employer-based system emerged as a consequence of government price controls during WWII. Employers were prohibited from competing for workers with wages, so they had to resort to competing with better benefits.
I would be very much in favor of a reform like Wyden-Bennett which seeks to move us away from the grotesque market distortion of employer-based healthcare, and gradually replace it with individuals purchasing their own at a health insurrance exchange. Small business owners are very much for this, too.
Naturally insurance companies are not in favor of W-B because it would remove some of the stranglehold you speak of: they'd have to compete for individual consumers. So yes, a sane market-based reform is against insurance companies on this, but not at the cost of replacing their stranglehold with a new and improved government-operated one.
Unfortunately a plan like this is unlikely to see the light of day. The more liberal members of my party will not support it and the Mega Corporation’s lobbyists are totally against any reform. Even if most Democrats could get behind such a plan the wingnuts would declare victory because it is not what the liberals want.
Well you can bet the "Mega Corporation's lobbyists" are even more against single-payer and a "strong" public option.
Even if most Democrats could get behind such a plan the wingnuts would declare victory because it is not what the liberals want.
Maybe so. But what the liberals want is inferior, and wingnut victory dances are not a reason to be against the best reform.
I will be honest about the health care debate. Honestly I don't care as long as needed health care is not longer unattainable. I am not talking for you or anyone else, in this I am being quite greedy. For me and my family. I have been waiting for 8 years now for a relatively easy operation, that without causes me greats amounts of pain and leaves me unable to work, and generally makes me more unhealthy in the long run. After all being forced to lay or sit down two weeks out of four has left me about 30 pounds over what I used to weigh (I was a perfect weight and now with constant exercising on my good days, and a good diet I am right on the cusp of being overweight.)
My daughter who is 15 has an autoimmune disorder, and will loose her coverage (if nothing changes) when she turns 18. If nothing changes she will either not be able to get insurance or she will have to pay an unreasonable amount of money. Now in defense of the insurance industry, taking her isn't good business. However, I don't want her to be screwed her entire life because of this…
So in short, I don't care what is changed (although I disagree and my research seems to suggest that single payer is the best) as long as my personal problems are fixed. Perhaps that isn't something I should admit, but it is the truth so I will give it to you in truth.
Thanks Terra. I hear in what you have to say a lot of the perspectivesI've been hearing and reading about. My assistant has a daughter whohas been sick for years and yet, from thhe things she's heard thinksthat under the obama plan, her daughter wouldn't get the treatment sheneeded. I talked to her about what would happen if she lost herinsurance and she was clear that it would probably bankrupt her. Thebig missing element in the larger debate is folks who are underinsuredor could lose their insurance at any minute. Back to vacation, sorryfor the stream of consciousness -- on my blackberry
I have read, and asked several people to read the current stuff on the table, and as is we would both be covered. There would be an out of pocket expense (as should be for this type of reform, nothing for free), but it would be reasonable as it is based on your income.
(LOL, you write as well on your blackberry as I do on my on screen keyboard!)
Anyway, I am not sure why she doesn't think she would be covered on the proposed stuff, but most likely it isn't true. The reason I say that is because everyone will be as it sits. (Although it isn't done, and I have no idea how it will change.) Plus she won't loose her current insurance with the reforms that are on there.
My daughter will loose her insurance because she will become an adult the way it is currently set up. I do not have insurance and haven't had insurance in my adult life, as I am "uninsurable" because of my problems. I do use the term loosely as I can get insurance, but it is basically crap and doesn't cover anything. (Which makes no sense to buy.)
Anyway, if you could find out why she doesn't think she would be included in the proposed plan I would love to look up and see if it is true or not. (Which means if you can give me more details I would be more than willing to do the research.) I am biased because of my own situation, but I will not lie for it. It isn't a perfect idea, but it is a start… :)
Thanks for your comment, my thoughts on pre-existing conditions are over here.
Basically I'm resigned to the plan currently going through congress: no denials for them.
So if anyone is offering a plan to new customers that would cover what your daughter has if they developed it while on the plan, then she would be able to buy the same plan. This seems fair enough.
The only alternative I've seen is articulated here in the WSJ, but it seems too complicated.
I shouldn't admit what I am about to admit. Your thoughts on pre-existing conditions are right on… Business wise you are completely correct, and that is the way it is…
However, this is one of the reasons that I am in favor of a single payer plan, I don't think that health care should be a commodity, and thus I don't think that health care should thought of or dealt with in a business type manner. I see health care as an essential. I am not talking about all procedures, and think that the insurance market should be there for specific things. Not just nose jobs, but elective surgery (to a degree) and so on. However, things like my daughters conditions (AutoImmune Hemolytic Anemia) should be taken care of without the business end.
My daughter takes chemo pills at a cost of $350 per month (at this time, dosages change, and if she goes into remission she might not have to take them for a while.) Without the medication her white blood cells kill her red blood cells, therefore, without the medication she would die. (Admitted to the hospital last year when diagnosed with a red blood cell count under 4.) That kind of thing shouldn't be a business, as it is life or death. Anything that is life or death shouldn't be a commodity.
My own problem isn't life or death, it is uncomfortable and it makes it so I can't be a productive member of society, and I am not sure if I would even take it far enough to extend to my condition. However, in the cases like my daughter I would.
Hopefully that makes sense… :)
Reading this comment, I'm not sure you understood that in the linked post I'm quoting someone else and basically saying I think their business logic makes things too complicated for consumers.
So, I am in FAVOR of requiring insurance to cover pre-existing conditions, because I don't see a realistic alternative.
Also, reinsurrance may prove necessary.
rofl… that is what i get for trying to read and watch TV at the same time. still a good word for single payer.
I am going to attempt to go into this reinsurrance without rambling. Before I do note that this is the first time I have heard of it, and I only read the links provided (as well as the links those provided) on the subject. To say it bluntly, I don't like it.
The major reason is because of cost. If the trends in income and the trends in insurance premiums continue, the middle class will become the poor. This is one of the major reasons that fixing health insurance is important for all of us, not just families like mine. Some of it can't be helped, as some things are expensive and that is the way it is. However, with the amount of money that individual people are making from the health insurance industry we can bring some of those costs down. The incentives aren't there to do so as it is.
The incentives for the insurance companies are simply to make money. Even providing that they would help pay for the risk pool that is explained (could happen) in the reinsurrance, it would be in actuality making those that do not qualify for the pool to pay. Since the incentive is there for the cash rather than the health, I don't see a program like this working, at least not long term.
Don't get me wrong I am in favor of health care reform, but I think the best way to do it is to be honest, and that includes keeping the cost in mind. This is one of the major drawbacks of the way it is, and the idea that Obama has. Obama's plan will be cheaper than the "status quo" but it is not by any means cost efficient.
The way things are set up right now we actually already pay enough money for every single person in America to be covered under a government plan. However, the rising costs (much of which comes from the practices of the insurance companies) must brought under control. There isn't ENOUGH incentive for the insurance companies to negotiate for lower prices. I know that innovation is in part created by money, and in part by necessity. However, there is NO WAY in heck that my daughters medication costs more than a few dollars to produce, thus for things like that a price that is acceptable to both the drug companies and the insurance company needs to be addressed.
There are many different ways that we can lower the costs, some making bigger differences than others. However, the MAJOR thing we can do if we want to keep our free market (which I do not, but it appears that about 35% -- you know the majority ;) do) is to have this public option that the president is trying to sell us on.
Now there will be problems (some foreseen and some not foreseen), but it is the only viable solution. The other one that has been proposed is to allow insurance companies to go across state lines, which causes its own set of problems. (If my insurance is from a different state whos laws do they have to conform to? If they don't do what they have to which government keeps them accountable for their actions?)
So in short, do you have any ideas for bring down costs? There are small common sense things of course, but I mean in a big way. (Small things = electronic records, not redoing the same tests repeatedly and so on.)
I don't know a way to significantly reduce cost that would not also significantly reduce innovation and make us worse off in the long run. That's why I'm against single-payer, even though I think could result in slightly better short-term care than the status quo.
I'd like to see a one-time decrease in health insurance costs by phasing out the employer-based system into a more robustly competitive individual market. But I think we're reacting inappropriately to the overall trend of healthcare costs going up.
Megan explains it well here
I forgot to subscribe to the comments :)
Good article, my friend, I'm going to bring up some libertarian influenced concerns to the conference phone call I'm going to have with Amy Klobuchar (along with several others) I'm having tomorrow night. "Hello, Democracy, this is Matt — I'm participating." What up.
Some concerns with your paper:
*I don’t think you take the objection of Krugman’s which you helpfully bring up seriously enough; even in your own example it seemed quite apparent to me that shopping for the food you want is much different than shopping for health care. You know straightforwardly enough what food you want to eat—I don’t need the government’s help to know that I like a Whopper better than a Big Mac. However, give me a panel of government experts telling me (or better, choosing for me so I can focus on making more money instead of thinking about death) which insurance is the most efficient or which doctor to go to for open heart surgery any day of the week.
*Also, I’m worried about the data you bring up to counter the Krugman objection. You always gotta look out for where you get data from — just because it's empirical doesn't mean it's good. I'm a bit nervous that the think-tank (which I’m sure believes it is as charitably minded, and public spirited as its website claims) that found the above conclusions is in fact, run by an association that represents the interests of… US insurance companies (the "actuarial" professionals)… who stand to lose quite a bit if a public health care option goes through (?)…
(That's why it makes at least some sense to pay us incredibly expensive public—and so in theory, disinterested—universities to do research. Because, there is a remarkably strong tendency for evidence to follow the interests of the money that pays for it).
On the source of the data, see Marginal Revolution (a very highly-regarded economics blog):
Here's more thoughts on why we need to take the Krugman objection seriously. Krugman's insight is this: "… the existence of 'uncertainty in the incidence of disease and in the efficacy of treatment' leads competitive markets to generate an inefficient allocation of resources." (http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?pid=S0042-9686…
Let's think about how choosing health care is different than normal consumption. Whereas with something at Target or Wal Mart one just shops around for the bargain on a similar product, a person isn't likely to shop around similarly with health care:
A) Because normal people don't have the expertise to know which product is better (radiology exams aren't like, say, toothpaste where you can just try it out) and
B) Because normal people like to think about health shopping as little as possible (not least because they don't like to think about getting sick or getting old in general)--they don't want to shop around, they want the first thing they can trust (and maybe, thinking emotionally and without expertise, they are likely to just trust the higher price tag) and they want to then go on with their lives.
I think these are important difficulties. Personally, I don't know if eliminating competition is the only response we can take to these real difficulties either. Perhaps some independent form of regulation would be the best solution--some website run by an oversight committee that assesses what hospitals have the best bang for the buck. Or perhaps, skip the committee completely and just have normal patients rate the hospital with reviews on the internet that have to be made public. Thus, people could choose which hospital to go to based on a combination of reviews and price. Admittedly, I don't know if these options really are feasible solutions to problems A and B (or just how big problems A and B are when it comes to inefficiency inflation). However, the need for innovation and lower prices are vital concerns and it scares me to take competitive market forces completely out of the equation if we're trying to get both. As GHerald points out, certainly the humanitarian goal of subsidizing poor people can still be done (they can get waivers for health care while still choosing their own care, and the hospitals that take them in would be reimbursed) even if we leave free markets in the equation.
Your analysis doesn't account for the costs associated with guaranteeing health-care as a positive right and giving everyone the peace of mind that "oh, the government will just pay for it".
The single biggest problem with our health-care system, an RN relative tells me, is noncomplying patients. Patients who don't do what nurses and doctors tell them, and so develop more serious and costly conditions.
Paying for care with a CDH gives patients a pretty big incentive to follow expert advice. Because under a CDH, patients who ignore such advice and anyone who lives an unhealthy lifestyle is directly responsible for the costs of their actions.
For instance, I'm related to a guy who doesn't brush his teeth enough. He's had a lot of fillings. But he hasn't been motivated to change his behavior, because somebody else is paying for all those fillings.
So I think you're hugely underestimating the degree to which A and B actually make CDH plans work better! And it makes sense, because otherwise why would the data show them as such an improvement?
*You claim that if we do not “support freer markets” …the U.S. economy would become more like Europe's, with the lower efficiency and lowered growth that over the long term is worse for everyone—rich and poor alike. " Two problems:
First, it's not obvious that European societies are worse off than the US even if the US does make more money. General happiness (which I think should be our end goal in any social policy) isn't really a direct function of wealth. Europeans who live in a more egalitarian society and take more vacations might be poorer than the US for both of these reasons. But they might also be happier.
Second, I'm worried about your citation of the US growth rate versus the French economic growth rate as proof for the claim that a de-regulated economy is a better one. The key unstated assumption behind the data you cite in the link is that the reason the Frenchies grew less is because they did not interfere with the operation of free markets. What about other explanations, though? For instance, don't the US and most of Europe have different ideologies when it comes to work (think of a pleasure loving Parisian versus a kick-you-in-the-ass New Yorker who works 90 hours a week and loves it… which country's likely to make more economic progress holding other factors steady)? What about different levels of natural resources?
However, I think, in that same link that your emphasis on growth of spending power over time--regardless of whether it can be mostly attributed to more unregulated (not the same as free) markets--to be a helpful corrective to us liberals who tend to think our politicians should be a mix between Robin Hood and Santa Clause and Christmas should be every day. We need to think about long-term happiness, the economic costs of current redistribution, not merely a short term rectification of inequality and I appreciate that your writing and conversations remind me of that.
*Also, love your emphasis on subsidies in order to deflate objections from warm-fuzzy liberals like myself… Always gotta keep alternatives ideas that accomplish the same objectives on the table.
To your second point, what of this chart? Assuming the graph is accurately based on OECD data, that seems pretty compelling evidence that the size of government correlates with inhibited growth. I don't see how pointing to cultural differences could be responsible for moving both variables.
A more interesting hypothesis might be that the countries with the larger governments already had a lot of wealth and technological development, and so had less "room" to grow. Whereas the ones with the small governments and high growth rates were just "catching up" by importing know-how. To support this explanation, we'd want to find a good correlation between smaller governments and lower _existing_ levels of economic and technological development (so they have "room to grow", enlarging their governments in the process). But is there such a correlation? If so, the U.S. would be a big outlier in relation to Europe (which one might try to explain away with WWII)
I think your first objection that we should worry about happiness and not GDP is more compelling from a utilitarian standpoint, and I haven't thought about it enough to explain why we should pursue both.
Okay, I think this table is illustrative of why growth should be a progressive goal.
I imagine plenty of people were happy back in 1900, and that's great. But I think few would dispute that we're much better off nowdays, even though (I'm guessing) happiness hasn't moved much.
It seems like this post has sparked an interesting discussion. Willyou also be posting cute pictures of puppies? I like puppies.P.s. Hawaii is gorgeous
Actually, wingnut victory dances are a GREAT reason to be against stonewalling and "Just Say No!" in the face of reform. Let there be no doubt, most of the Republicans in the Congress want NOTHING PASSED. Zilch, nada. They will subvert any rational argument, like some of the ones you advance, to kill reform ENTIRELY. Stopping the politically craven wingnuts like these from getting their wish is a great reason to push for the strongest reform possible. Because, when it comes down to it, the choice is between some measure of Democratic-crafted reform and NOTHING.
Not at all. People being crazy is not a reason to take a "strong" heavy-handed approach that is unlikely to improve things. In fact, the hardline progressive approach of "no reform without the public option" is every bit as crazy, unless it's just a bargaining posture.
The Democratic plan making its way through the Senate, sans public option, is presently looking like the best we can hope for. And trying to make it more like W-B is the best improvement we could hope for, and also the most practical route to take. Insurance companies won't like a drift to W-B, but fuck 'em, that's not a reason to not incrementally aim for what good we can get.
Putting energy towards moving the bill more "strongly" towards single-payer, by contrast, is quite misguided. For two reasons:
A) Not better, seeks to solve some problems but creates new, different ones (libs prefer to ignore the unintended consequences of calling in the gov't)
B) A poor use of political capital. Lot more good to be done elsewhere. (either by pushing for something more W-B, or in an area other than health-care)
Ah Guru Megan, how Gherald loves thee. Om …