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More pearls of wisdom from that bastion of politicized Christianist exceptionalism:

It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom. He would’ve done the same to save his Dad, or any one of His disciples. For that matter, He even died to save all humans.

It’s obvious He would not be happy with those who voted for the candidate who kills because it’s above his “pay grade” to know if they’re alive. Checking the Commandments, killing innocents is against the 5th. Because pro-aborts don’t know for sure life does not exist at conception, they are still willing to risk that it’s not killing.

(h/t John Cole)

So, Jesus wouldn’t be cool with killing babies in the womb but he’d be fine with torturing people? Yep, nothing says “Christ’s love” like strapping a guy to a bench and drowning him to extract information.

This reminds me of a couple of things I’ve blogged about before. The first is the poll that came out a few weeks ago that revealed that a majority of regular church-goers approve of the use of torture:

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week — 54 percent – said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified. Only 42 percent of people who “seldom or never” go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

There was also this gem of a quote from Christian Right leader Jack Gary Bauer:

There are a lot of things Jesus wouldn’t do because he’s the son of God. I can’t imagine Jesus being a Marine or a policeman or a bank president, for that matter. The more appropriate question is, ‘What is a follower of Jesus permitted to do?’

I think if we believe the person we have can give us information to stop thousands of Americans from being killed, it would be morally suspect to not use harsh tactics to get that information.

It’s pretty sad that the Christian Right in this country has been politicized to the point that, in defense of their preferred political ideology, they have been reduced to claiming that Jesus’ supposedly loving message of peace and caring for your fellow man has been perverted to justify torture.

Say what you will about torture and Christianity, only the most extreme reading of the Gospels imaginable could, at the same time, claim that Jesus preached both a message of love and a message that could justify torture.

Perhaps the most important Bible passage for this debate is this:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)

Update: To be fair, there are some religious people out there that are not completely insane on this issue:

Since January 2006, the more than 250 religious organizations comprising the National Religious Campaign Against Torture have worked together to end U.S.-sponsored torture. During 2008, the religious community advocated for a Presidential Executive Order ending torture. It happened. On January 22, President Obama issued an Executive Order halting torture.

Now the task is to make sure that U.S.-sponsored torture never happens again. To accomplish this goal, our nation needs to put safeguards in place to prevent its recurrence. We will better understand what safeguards are needed if we have a comprehensive understanding of what happened – who was tortured, why they were tortured, and who ordered the torture. As a nation we need the answers to those questions.

Therefore, NRCAT is calling for a Commission of Inquiry to investigate U.S. torture policies and practices. To bolster this call, we are asking you and other people of faith to endorse the statement “U.S.-Sponsored Torture: A Call for a Commission of Inquiry.”

h/t Digby

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  1. vjack says:

    Essentially, Jesus would have approved of whatever I want/like and condemned whatever I don't want or don't like. This seems to be the basic idea.

  2. CalSailor says:

    What I find amazing is that Gary Bauer, in defense of his permission of waterboarding says that if "AMERICAN" lifes could be saved, it's ok to waterboard. How about if, say Icelanders' lives could be saved? How about Israeli lives? How about Pakistani or Palestinian lives?

    I find it hard to accept that people who argue that human beings made in the image of God can have different "value" in God's eyes. Because if an American life is more valuable than the live of someone of another country, then Jesus truly came in vain. That's not religious faith. That's not even patriotism. That's jingoism of the worst sort: It claims that American citizens are of such privilege that the whole rest of the world doesn't count for much.

    We can remove the parable of the Good Samaritan from the bible, for the point of this parable is "imagine your worst enemy [insert here] and THAT person helped the good person [ie, us]. Go and do likewise". If the Good Samaritan is an Iraqi, or a Muslim in general…or a member of al Qaeda…then what?

    Pr Chris

    • Hobbesy says:

      Is it really all that hard to believe when we're talking about a religion that believes its god has a chosen people? If it's possible it's not that much of a stretch to believe of a god who plays favorites that you may be his new one…. it's always bothered me greatly that so much behaviour we would find abhorant in a parent we don't seem to have a problem with in our gods.

      • Schu says:

        It is not the religion that is at fault, but the people who try to hijack the concepts to explain why their situation ethics are justified. The major fault with Christianity in this country is the fact that anyone can call himself a man of God, and we all believe him. Even if he can not live a Christian life, we believe his claims.

      • xxx says:

        What if God's chosen people were…..Muslims!

        Wouldn't that be a bitch!

    • Richard says:

      Religion is extremely useful in that regard…. convince your people that you are a chosen few in the eyes of your god, and that everything your leaders do has divine consent.

      Religion….. very comforting to those with no power, and very useful to those IN power.

    • bogi666 says:

      Bauer and his pretend christians make god in their own image which concludes that their god is a puny minded, mean spirited megalomaniac with a huge prostrate that irritates him. This is despite Christ's doctrine which is to the contrary of what the Bauer like con men say what the Christ reportedly actually said in the Bible. AS for their literal biblical interpretation well it doesn't apply selectively. As for their life starts at conception at , there are examples in the animal kingdom, wolverines, kangaroos for instance which interrupt fetal development after conception until the mother is certain of a successful birth. The factors taken into consideration, by animals, is food supply and environmental factors which favor survival. Humans apparently lost this natural ability and is able to compensate otherwise.

    • Lucy says:

      Exactly! The most heinous acts in human history have been motivated by religious zeal, I think. I’ve had several occasions to confront people with the Good Samaritan parable myself. And, furthermore, “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” Unrelated, but the “Christian” reaction to the artist’s use of the image of Christ crucified to represent the horrendous suffering of homosexuals dying from AID’s and to indict Christianity for abandoning–reviling-them, in fact (“Hide and Seek,” the Smithsonian exhibit on homosexual themes and images in American art), was typical outrage. And the Smithsonian caved and cut that part of the video!!!
      What an unwieldy sentence!

  3. CalSailor says:

    Too many people have memorized John 3:16, but they rush over the first part of the text: For God so loved the world….that he sent… He loved the world--every person of every religion and ethnicity, and the rest of the creation as well--that he was willing to send his son. And he did that 1600 years BEFORE AMERICA was a nation. How, then, can followers of Jesus, born with all the privilege in the world, torture some other person made in God's image, as if it is OK with God??? On the contrary, I would argue that the privilege we enjoy as Christians who happen to be Americans is: to whom much is given, much shall be required. That means we have to set an even higher standard than those for whom life is a struggle sometimes even for survival.

    Pr Chris

  4. Ibelieve says:

    To think you can speak for Jesus should be a mortal sin. I would love to se these people justifying their lives. We all know Jesus would not do any of this, nor would he belong to their cult/

    • kuhl says:

      This is so true. And they should also take another look at the 'those who are without sin should throw the first stone' passage. And 'Judge not lest ye be judged.' And the whole passage about keeping your faith between you and god and 'not praying in the streets like the hypocrites do.'

  5. thelastbushman says:

    if there is a god i think its safe to say that these people who say jesus would have approved of waterboarding are going to be tortured in hell for eternity. poetic.

  6. garryw says:

    Follow the money. Why is it that the Christian Right preaches that which benifits the CIA and their corporate masters. Like LBJ said " the CIA is where the elites send their sons when they dont want them in the firm" or like Napoleon said "the purpose of religion is to keep the poor people from rising up and killing the rich" The Cia and the Religious Right are just a couple of tools used by the ruling corporations to control the rabble in America Inc.

  7. John Davis says:

    Wow, thats some pretty cool stuff dude!

    RT
    <a href="http://www.real-anonymity.pro.tc” target=”_blank”>www.real-anonymity.pro.tc

  8. jim says:

    When I saw the headline, i thought it was some sort of sick joke, but I underestimated the venality of the far right Christians. There is no limit to their quest for absolving the Bush administration of its sins. To say Christ would have approved of waterboarding is blasemphy.

  9. wayne says:

    This stupid story inspired my latest comic strip:

    http://bit.ly/AItlU

  10. english-steve says:

    When will Cheney and Rumsfeld be indicted for their war crimes?

    I have heard that both Germany and Italy already have warrants out for their arrests.

  11. Anonymous says:

    The usage of Jesus' and indeed God's message to improperly justify torture of ANY human being is a perversion rooted in vanity (one of the deadly sins). I am a Christian, born and raised in the Bible belt. I find Jesus' message to be one of tolerance, love, and peace. I am appalled that any so-called "religious" person could interpret Jesus' message of love and acceptance to be anything other than that. True Bible-believing Christians should not stand for such perverted representation.

  12. karl says:

    So THIS must be how moderate Muslims feel about their extremist brethren. I'm appalled and ashamed. These people are not Christians.

  13. Keith Kent says:

    These people are not "Christians" in the purest sense of the word. A Christian is the term created by the romans to describe the members of The Way as just like the man they crucified. The word means little Christs. They walked, talked, and lived just like the man Jesus. Most of the American "Christians" show little or no resemblance to that heritage. It is a religious term that aligns them politically with others that live like them. Hypocrites, vipers, liars should be the words to describe this sort of religious rhetoric. Jesus promotes loving neighbors and enemies!! Love them, don't hate them. Even if someone believes that torture is ok, do not impute that belief to an all loving God. Seriously. Just say that Jesus doesn't say so but we believe it's ok. I am personally against torture but there is plenty of torture out there much worse than waterboarding. While it would suck to be drowned there are much more effective measures to get information. And remember that much of the torture out there isn't publicized because the entire purpose of said torture is to KILL YOU, not just to gain information. There really isn't a fix for the torture issue because it is a symptom of human nature. Basically in pressure situations, most people look for themselves and only for themselves. The answer is to become a new creation. This is the true answer of Christianity. Not a list of rules and regulations but the complete destruction of base desires and a new creation like Jesus. This is what you don't hear at most "christian" (i mean politically based, white, upper-middle class, yuppie) churches. This is the message that was taught by Christ and His disciples. Spiritual transformation. Not behavior modification.

  14. ex-christian says:

    More people have been killed in the name of religion over the years than anything else combined. Sounds like a terrorist organization to me

  15. angelonfire says:

    Let's see if Jesus would approve of this one. Rumor is the 2000 photos of prisoner abuse are coming out, one way or another. Some of these photos allegedly show the raping of children of the prisoners, a brilliant idea Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others thought would encourage the prisoners to disclose highly valuable information. If someone were raping my son in front of me I'd confess to anything or make up stuff to make them stop, wouldn't you?
    I figure a few photos will leak and then the indignant congress will demand (the GOP will yell the loudest) the rest of the photos, audio, and video (what wasn't burned by CIA before Bush left office) be released. It should be a real dog and pony show that will bury the GOP and catapult Obama into the highest of esteem in our country's history. It will end the controversy concerning the closing of Gitmo and other secret prisons we don't have around the world.
    And the religious kooks will find scripture somewhere in the "good book" to say these acts are okay too, bank on it.

  16. Lisaloo says:

    I think if we check God's Holy Word, we discover that when Peter cut off a soldier's ear when he was apprehending Jesus, Jesus put the ear back on and gently chastised Peter to put away the sword.

    The only sword Jesus wielded was the sword of Truth.

    These right wing GOP'ers need to read their Bible before making such self-righteous statements. I think they have to ask, does their righteous anger serve God, or serve themselves?

    I'd like to see the Republican party taken back by righteous honest men like Ron Paul and Colin Powell. That's a ticket I can get behind.

    We need to set an example to the world. Disarm our nuclear weapons, stop selling weapons outside of this country, and take care of our own inside our own borders.

    • Schu says:

      Most people, who call themselves conservative Christians, are not Christians. They assume the role so that they can have a platform to demand that others believe the way they do. These people then demand a national religion, which they hope to control, a national language, so that they can belittle anyone who cannot speak it, the list goes on and on. Anyone who uses very short quotes from the Old Testament to prove that a Christian should do something is not a Christian. A Christian bases their lives on the good news in the New Testament. Not very many right wing bible thumpers can distort the New Testament, they much prefer distorting the Old Testament.

  17. Matt says:

    The perversity of religion never ends. Seriously, do they not realize that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth? How can someone claim to be a follower of "god" , but feel that torturing someone if not only fine but "endorsed" by Jesus himself. These people need to remove their head from their rectum and get a breath of fresh air…

  18. Wordsmith says:

    I am appalled, furious and ashamed. The Jesus I read about in the four gospels Is so far from how the author of the article describes Him. To claim otherwise is to graffiti the name of my Jesus; to bring shame and reproach to the Man of peace whose name means Love. Throughout the ages and long before the idea of biologically cloning humans, far right zealots have sought to morph (by force) others into tiny replicas of themselves. These spiritual perverts have been lauded, canonized and decried loudly throughout time while genuine followers of Christ have quietly, lived their lives loving their brothers; comforting the sick; and caring for the dying. There will come a time when the tables will turn; wrongs will be righted; and Jesus will say, "Come ye blessed of my Father. Inherit the kingdom I have prepared for you." Matthew 25:31-34 clarifies who will actually be on the "right" side of Jesus.

  19. Matthew says:

    Lest anybody forget, from the Bible:

    "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

    -Matthew 10:34

  20. Anonymous says:

    Who cares about Jesus, torture them anyway. They don't fall under Geneva convention, I know if they captured me I'd rather shoot myself than suffer what they would do to me.

    • Metavirus says:

      great, why not rape them with a broomstick in front of their family so they'll spill the beans. or maybe we should skin their children before their eyes? once you sign off on torture, you've signed off any other potential set of horribles

    • Josh Casto says:

      Furthermore, it makes us no better than the terrorists if we resort to their savage techniques. Don't you want to win this war with honor? If you want to win at all costs, you'll end up corrupting the principles of liberty, freedom, and equality that this war is being fought for. Allegedly, that is, if supporters of torture like yourself continue espousing your anti-American position.

  21. Josh Casto says:

    Let's also not forget…

    "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. … You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." — Matthew 5:38-39,43-45

  22. sonomabob says:

    Thanks for the article. I was traveling to Redding CA the other day and caught a right wing talk show on this very subject.
    The topic was; What type of torture would Jesus use? The caller I heard figured that anything goes.
    My wife was so upset we had to turn it off.
    I think they have old time religion right. They just picked the wrong one. Maybe Kali the Hindu creator destroyer would be a better fit.

  23. person says:

    The RCC condemns torture right in their Catechism, while they may be completely insane on the abortion issue, at least they are consistent. No abortion, no death penalty, no torture. (Though, of course, it has not always been this way)

  24. Saint Brian says:

    Gentle Jesus meek and mild
    How come your old man's so wild?
    Killing people left and right
    Showing off his godly might
    Destroying mankind in a flood
    Cursing us with boils and blood
    Froggies rain down from the sky
    All of the firstborn must die
    You're so nice and kind and good
    Always doing what you should
    You never even talk of hate
    So why is daddy so irate?
    With him it's threats and death and fear
    He never even sheds a tear
    One small misstep, one tiny sin
    And then he doesn't let you in
    He sends you down to meet his friend
    And there you'll meet your fiery end
    (It burns your flesh both night and day
    Until the last stars fade away)
    He loves us not, or so it seems
    Unless he loves to hear our screams
    He made us to be what we are
    And punishes us when we get that far
    You are his son, or so they say
    And yet you're both like night and day
    I wouldn't want to get you mad
    But are you sure that he's your dad?
    -Saint Brian the Godless

  25. This is no surprise… The religious are capable of any level of hypocrisy due to the fact that their ability to descriminate between right and wrong has been artificially neutered by their conditioning.

    The religious man has no trouble believing the ridiculous and only wonders why he's so much better at it than everybody else is. This he takes as a sign from God.

  26. Will says:

    Jesus wouldn't approve of waterboarding… Jesus said to love your neighbors as yourself. that's not very loving to me…

  27. Brendan says:

    That's quite the blasphemy.

    I'm pretty sure he said "Love your enemy", not "Waterboard your enemy".

    I guess their spelled pretty similar.

  28. ArlingtonB says:

    Waiting for this in Chick Comics
    Torturer: Is Jesus your Lord and savior
    Christian: Yes, with all my heart.
    Torturer: pours water. Is Jesus you Lord and savior
    Christian: (gasp) yes. yes…
    Torturer: (pours water) Is Jesus you Lord and savior
    Christian: ye…
    Torturer: Is Jesus your Lord and savior? Tell me what I want to hear. (pours water)
    Christian: ye..no, no, stop, please
    Torturer: Do you love Satan?
    Christian: n..
    Torture: (pours water) One more time? Do you…
    Christian: I love Satan! I love Satan!
    Torturer: With all your heart? (drips water)
    Christian: I love Satan with all my heart

  29. Tim Inman says:

    "This is how they will know you are my disciples, If you love one another."

  30. Saint Brian says:

    Our pharisees are even worse today than they were in Jesus' day…

    WWJT?

    The fact that some so-called Christians are willing to say that Jesus would approve of torture is astounding. Is there no depth of hypocrisy to which these people will not descend?

    You too can have the peace that passeth all understanding, as long as you are sufficiently lacking in understanding.

  31. A Poem:

    Jesus loves me, yes I know
    Cause the Bible tells me so
    That is all I need to hear
    And so I know I'll never fear
    Nothing else is in my head
    Except a book by guys long dead
    Science isn't telling me
    What I can and cannot see
    I never, ever take a look
    Since I only own one book
    Jesus is my only thought
    When others ask me what I've bought
    I’d rather pluck out both my eyes
    So that I can't see the lies
    That Science tells us are the truth
    I think that Science is uncouth!
    Telling me that things fall down
    And how a cricket makes a sound
    And how planets spin around the sun
    And how the gears in watches run
    I do not need to hear the facts
    I only need religious tracts
    And prayers to our Great Lord above
    Who blinded me with Bible Love…

  32. …It feels so good to be so dense
    To live behind an iron fence
    To shelter fragile minds from truth
    (Indoctrinate them in their youth)
    Feed them tales of God above
    And all of His undying Love
    And how he put things in this place
    Plain as the nose there on your face
    That seem to say that He's not real
    That's just the lying Science deal!
    He put them here to fool us guys
    When we try to use our eyes
    We know better, yes we do
    Science is at best, untrue
    At worst a strange Satanic plot
    To show what is real, and what is not…

  33. …Why should we care what is real?
    We still have the Christian deal
    Believe in God, at any cost
    And look to others like we're lost
    Hope for God to make it clear
    When the Rapture cometh near
    With nonbelievers left behind
    You'll all be sorry that you whined
    Of how we're descended from some beast
    (I don't believe it in the least)
    “No Thanks” I say to Science stuff
    I think that I have had enough
    Of facts and reason, Truth and Hope
    I'd much prefer to be a dope.
    -Saint Brian the Godless

  34. Saint Brian says:

    Oh, and btw, bacgems = Saint Brian

  35. dolbydunn says:

    Psychotic phuck phreaks, to the fullest extent of the law.

    Christians, … Not according to anything I've ever read in the Bible.

  36. Kickngrass says:

    Y'all are all half crazy. I never thought of would Jesus approve of torture. That sounds insane. My answer would be "NO". But should we approve of it? Well, Jesus' goal were much more long term than ours. He was concerned for the individual, NOT any particular state. We are however concerned for our state and national security. I think that if we believe that we can extract info outta someone that would further our "Short Term" cause then maybe we should be allowed to use more painful tactics than what our bill of rights would allow on an US citizen. They do not fall under any Geneva Convetion laws and besides we are the only country that tries to adhere to that useless document. Hey D don't even think waterboarding is considered effective or torture in some of the countries that these people come from. Maybe it is just the twisting of our already small vocabularies.

    • Metavirus says:

      too bad that abusive interrogation practices are the easy refuge of the cowardly and simple-minded autocrat. it's also too bad that abusive interrogation practices don't work, garner false intelligence that waste our time and resources chasing false leads, and serve to wreck our image around the world and create more terrorists that want to kill us. it's also too bad that torture is illegal, immoral and against christian teaching. but other than that, torture is super

    • Schu says:

      Torture is not about gathering information; because it is proven that the gathered intelligence is useless. Torture is about revenge, and making son one, any one pay for past events. The proponents of water boarding can not admit that all they wanted was revenge for 9/11, from anyone who lived in the area. Since the Bush/Cheney crowd did exactly that, they have destroyed the Republican Party trying to justify their actions. Since the so called Christian Collation backed Bush/Cheney they now have to justify their actions. Hence you have so called Christian leaders trying to say that Jesus would approve of torture.

  37. Kickngrass says:

    My wife says "If you really want a say in what goes on… Join the Marine Corps and do something about it."

    • Metavirus says:

      yeah, because nothing says "America" and "democracy" like suggesting that unless you're in the armed forces, you don't have anything valuable to contribute to the debate over our national security

      • Kickngrass says:

        Well, America is not a Democracy. And yes it is very Patriotic to join the military during a time of war. If you are not in the military, or have never been in the military… Well, you don't have a dog in that fight. And this is not about our national security. It is about protecting those that would do us harm and I don't have a dog in that fight. If I were running the war there would not be any prisoners to torture.

        • Metavirus says:

          "If I were running the war there would not be any prisoners to torture. "

          dear god, that's a chilling statement. kill em all and let god sort em out, right? i hope you realize that most of the people we are holding in detention were not "captured on the battlefield". most of the people we have were ratted out by other people in detention and various informants. the bush administration itself released thousands of detainees because it came to the realization that it didn't have any evidence against them. so, you're basically saying that anyone anywhere that is suspected of helping al-Qaeda in any way should be summarily executed upon capture? well, at least we know where you stand, you sociopathic nutjob.

  38. Chris says:

    The circle finally closes…the people screaming and beating their chest about seculer humanism in the 80's -- 90's and it's lack of "moral absolutes" are now espousing the "decadent:" notion of "the end justifies the means". They are so disingenuous, i can't stand to hear them speak.

  39. matt says:

    since when does turning the other cheek involve waterboarding?

  40. mark says:

    Religion and politics should not be mix although on the reality it will intertwine in some point. So the best thing is just do the right thing that you know. I am a Christian but that doesn't make me holier than other person nor more special or less of a person than the others. You just need to live with the fact that we are different in some way or the other but if we try to understand and love each other like what our Lord Jesus Christ has thought to us by example we can make the earth a much more better place to live in, minus the bitterness, the hatred and unnecessary death of the innocents. Logically and scientifically speaking no one wants to be hated and suppress so we should not do that to others.You don't need Einstein to figure that out.

  41. bluedog124 says:

    First, if anyone thinks Jesus would approve of torture, they are decieved by the devil.

    It is Satan who created and delights in torture, not the Lord!

    Second, the real "god" of the republican party is money, not Jesus.

    However, the GOP likes to use Jesus, (and wedge issues like gay marriage and abortion), to fool ignorant Christians into voting republican, but when republicans get into power, they forget Christians until the next election cycle.

    Wake up Christian people, you are being used and abused by your GOP corporate masters!

    You are "ignorant" Christians, because you are lead by emotion and not by reason. if you'd bother to diligently study your bibles, you'd know that only the Holy spirit can change people's hearts and their morals, not your intended laws of prohibition and/or repression.

    Jesus never tried to gain political power or pass morality laws!

    If you really want to make the world a better place, then drop the GOP and lift up Jesus.

    "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." —John 12:32

  42. Alban Fenle says:

    Also, not to forget what is said in Matthew 25: "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me… Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

    If one takes the saying to heart not to take out the splinter in one's brother, but to take out the beam in one's own eye, the world would look completely different. Torture would be unthinkable. But the world is a hiding place for the beams in our eyes, for the thoughts of hatred for which we don't want to take responsibility. It was set up for that purpose. We project our hatred onto others, hoping to be free of the unbearable conflict we would have to face. No evil is outside of our own perspective and thought. It is all projection. Projection makes perception. God bless us.

  43. reasonablecitizen says:

    When sinners die they go to hell where their souls are tortured forever. Why would conservative Republicans have a problem with torture in this life? It is just an early start, isn't it?

  44. Jim says:

    As Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

  45. Steve says:

    God is make believe, and the morals of those that follow this non-existent creature are also make believe--and subject to revision when it fits with their current philosophy.

  46. The Chemist says:

    Enter text right here Interesting. So I take it that those of you against torture are also against abortion as well. If not, start plucking beams from your own eyes.

    • Metavirus says:

      the quickest way to avoid an argument is to frantically point to other bad stuff in an attempt to divert attention. want to see how this is played? since you're apparently against abortion, i assume you are also against the death penalty and unjust wars, right?

      try to address the issue at hand and people will try to take your points seriously.

  47. Doug says:

    A big point is missed here -- sinful behavior is not extinguished when one accepts the Lord as Savior and becomes a Christian. Christians sin just like everyone else, maybe more because I suspect that many people are attracted to religion because they fear the lack of control they have in doing evil things.

    The "Christian Right" if there is such a thing (I hate labels) is just expressing their sinful natures if they support such an abomination as waterboarding. Christians get drunk, beat their wives, steal, rape, watch porn, and all the rest because they are human and that's what humans do. Becoming a Christian doesn't make one a super moral person, give you super control or anything else.

    Additionally, scum bag polititions like the Criminal President Bush have manipulated large masses of people through their faith every since man/woman had religion. This is no different.

  48. Doug says:

    Christ was big on praying for our leaders to do the right thing. If you were president, and you could waterboard someone who was going to nuke NY city and stop it even if he were an American would you do it? I know I would. Would God forgive me . . . yes . . . especially if I then prayed for forgiveness.
    The question "Would Jesus waterboard someone" is a bone head question to start with. This is the first I've heard of this issue . . . but it does smack of trying to get the Criminal President Bush off the hook. I hope he is indicted for war crimes. I'll help pack his bags for the Haug .. . . the a****h***.
    Finally, as it has been said many times, "War is not nice and many horrible and messy things happen in it." One cannot expect a war to be waged without attrocities happening. Plenty of fine people did the absolutely most horrible, degrading things imaginable during every war in the 20th century. Marines, otherwise good people, dug gold fillings out of the mouths of Japanese that were still living.
    Would Jesus dig the fillings out of the mouths of helpless enemy soilders? Makes about as much sence as the other question . . . its all political BS.

    • Schu says:

      But it was not official US policy for marines to dig gold out of dying Jap soldiers, in fact if reported they would have been punished. What people to day are trying to justify, is the policy of the Bush/Cheney power block to torture.

  49. Shanna says:

    To quote George Bernard Shaw, "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means."

    How anyone can construe the "turn the other cheek", Golden Ruled-message supposedly taught by Jesus Christ into an affirmation of torture to extract information is appalling and, frankly, terrifying. If even the peaceful teachings of Jesus can be twisted into an acceptance and sanction of torturing another human being -- for *any* reason -- hope for the salvation of this doomed race fades even dimmer.

  50. Crawford says:

    Christians torture Jews. Jews torture Arabs. Arabs torture Persians. Persians torture comedy. Its a vicious cycle.

  51. daya says:

    Yes Red State is right.Did not Jesus say -- I have come to set father against son- ask the disciples to sell even their clothes and buy swords -- I have not come to peace but the sword -- A disciple even cut off a Romans ear
    The torturers and the American govt. were influenced by Jesus,s teachings.

  52. Schu says:

    This is another example of quoting only a part of a verse and using it out of context. Peter did cut off a high priest guards ear, was chastised by Jesus, who healed the high priest guard. As to the quote about setting father against son, it is changing their beliefs from Judaism to Christianity, not to do war. What Red State is trying to do is justify their situation ethics with a thin coating of Christianity. All miss quotes like yours do is allow them to succeed.

  53. Lev says:

    It never ceases to amaze me. Then again, you figure that most of these guys are just desperately trying to hold onto power--that eternal source of corruption--toss in some natural tribalism, and cap it off with the inevitable pride that comes with thinking you’ve found The Answer, which is always a sign that you haven’t. I’ve been reading Niebuhr again recently, so this has been on my mind. The Christian Right has managed to do so much damage to both our politics and the Christian religion. I’m often struck by how profoundly they’ve screwed things up for us.

    Then again, I think it’s safe to say that I am to Christianity what Daniel Larison is to conservatism.

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